Do Casinos Rig Blackjack Tables
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Many view Indian casinos as 'lesser' casinos often perhaps because they are smaller and more remote. Some are poorly run and this creates a certain viewpoint. Sort of a motorist on his way to Reno situation. He might prefer what he considers to be the 'real' thing in Reno, but several Indian casinos are right there near the roadside and why should he drive over the mountains in Winter when 'real enough' is right there. This then bleeds off the traffic to Reno sufficiently to affect Reno casinos. The motorists laments the days of old while he plays at the Indian casino.
I play at Indian casinos. I don't think they are well run. Rude floorpersons, ill-trained dealers, special monthly coupons mailed half way through the month, using a fifty dollar match coupon takes more rigamarole than would be worth it, special events poorly planned (99cent beer in one place, 99cent hotdogs in another, 9.99 tee shirts in yet another; some of the most poorly run corporate parties I've ever attended). Heck, I don't think those Indian casinos even know what a Tit Pit is. One recently opened a set of special blackjack tables with supposedly sexy costumes on the dealers but I think the wardrobe mistress worked in a convent or something.
Riverside county in California had a murder related to a tribal audit and many Indians who objected to the results of the audit were threatened with dis-enrollment. These things all create an aura of 'shadyness'. Its sort of the same view when an Indian casino dealer loudly referred to a player as a 'corksucker' and the Floorperson echoed the viewpoint byloudly asking 'which one of those corksuckers' thus resulting in the entire MiniBacc table leaving even though they perhaps were non-tippers and might indeed have been 'cork' suckers. Or a Pit Boss who ended a rebellion about raised minimums by declaring that in one minute anyone who was still seated at that table would be arrested by tribal police, taken to a tribal jail and hauled before a tribal judge. These things affect the players a bit more than the incidents may actually merit. I don't think a dealer in Vegas could get away with such things and the Floorperson might echo the dealer's sentiments about the players but it would have been a whispered echo rather than a bellowed one which the players involved all heard and darn near half the casino heard as well.
I don't like the notion that a tribal commission is separate enough from the tribe, though I imagine the dollar amounts at stake in New York and Florida make things honest enough. Casinos in Vegas do declare some slot payouts to be 'malfunctions' but I've a certain subjective impression that it happens more frequently in Indian casinos and seems far more of an impenetrable wall of silence when it happens.
Indian casinos are close by and thats the best I can say about them. Perhaps I should have a more tolerant attitude towards them, but I simply don't. I probably should have a more tolerant attitude towards Terribles too, but I don't.
Well, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, 'Indian Gaming' has ever recovered from that black eye.
Like this story from the FBI's website about a ring of crooked dealers (who started in Indian Casinos with weak protection) working with accomplices to take advantage of pre-sorted sequences of cards in shoes. In this case the casinos were victims of crooked personnel, but isn't that always going to be the case. While I think the vast, vast majority of legal casinos in the U.S. have no need to cheat customers with underhanded gadgets, the lack of oversight noted when these stories do come out regarding crooked employees at Indian casinos doesn't fill me with confidence.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't fault you a bit if you choose not to patronize a tribal casino. I'm just trying to figure out the stigma behind some of the comments, specifically the ones that state that the tribe, through use of the casino, is ripping someone off. Your first example looks to be the work of a shady employee, done for his benefit. It is certainly not a case of the tribe participating in any action that would short a player for their gain. The second one with the Tran orginization, those guys were running that scam for years in Asian casinos and made off with many more millions than the relatively paltry sum they got in the States. And besides, their deal affected the players in no way whatsoever, that was a scam against the casino.
Yes, I'm probably being defensive, but I also truely don't see where the concern is. In my personal experience, any gaming issue is handled jointly by the tribe and the state, and any legal issue is handled by County Sheriffs, State Police, and in some cases, the Secret Service and FBI, and I just don't see how the idea that tribal casinos are somehow lawless came to be.
For the most part, I think that the Indian Casinos are run on the up and up. There isn't really any reason to mess with RNG's or shuffling machines when you are already pulling in billions.
However, there is the problem with the 'image'. For me, it is related to the lack of accountability that comes with being considered 'sovereign'. See this article for a long, but pretty complete description of what I am getting at. The controls and oversight employed by the government on non-indian casinos, do not directly apply. The non-tribal gambling public is called on to trust in regulatory systems that may have been set up with the intention that they perform in a similar fashion to the Nevada or New Jersey systems, but in fact, are not accountable to the citizenry since the non-tribal public has no say in who sits on the boards, or what decisions they make. If there were allegations of the misuse of public monies, we could vote someone out of office. Instead, we had to deal with the Seminole's David Cypress.
Help me out, forum. Is there a blackjack game where you have to pay a fee for the right to play the game? And people complain about 6:5?
In my wildest dreams I could not envision playing ONE hand where I had to pay an 'ante'. Yuma- it is possible you have had disproportionately bad hands, but if you are really paying an 'ante' you have NO CHANCE.
Kinda off topic for this thread but.......For any gamblers out there that used to play in the Seattle area and remember when the gambling laws first passed around 1997 and anyone could open up a card room. Kennmore Lanes bowling ally was one of the first places to have blackjack tables on the eastside. They Used to have a 50 cent ante per hand but....You were not playing against house money. In other words the house was not the bank....
They used to have 4 tables. The limit was $5-$25 bets. And anyone could be the banker. You had to put up at least $500 bank roll. And you could choose to quit after each shoe was completed(6 deck shoe). I did it a couple of times and broke about even. The house could care less if the players won or lost it wasn't there money either way they were just collecting 50 cents a hand antes. It was cool to be banker there was always a line of people waiting to be bankers on the weekends LOL.
Most casinos wouldn't risk their license and negative publicity for a few percentage points on blackjack. The real money is made in the machines in most jurisdictions; tables are an afterthought. I see some incidents cited, but they are generally crooked staff taking advantage of poor operational controls.
In Oklahoma, there would be no reason that the house would want to cheat a player; quite the opposite in fact. That jurisdiction is a 'Player Banked' jurisdiction, which means that all the winning (execpt for a small % of operating cost) must be returned to the players in some form of prize. That is why they collect a commission on each hand (and with that, they make more money off players than they could by scamming them). cheating a player only to give his winnings to another player sound logical???
Once gaming is legalized in Texas, that jurisdiction will probably have to conform to traditional house-banked games, like in vegas and other real table game casinos. IMHO, until then, if anyone loses money playing in that state, they got what they deserved.
Stop it milton!
I flagged the post that is/was directly above this one because miltonwinston is dropping online links again. I purposely didn't quote it so that when it disappears it won't be seen in my reply. There was nothing in the link about the topic of this thread.
Stop it milton!
Yes, but you visited the link so he got his affiliate fee...
Yes, but you visited the link so he got his affiliate fee...
I did visit the link but it won't happen again. From now on I'll just use my flagging privilege and that goes for the other two identities that I suspect this poster of using.
I COUNT CARDS AND THESE AUTO SHUFFLERS ARE TERRIBLE!!! I WILL NEVER GO TO THESE CASINOS AGAIN
If you play 100 hands at $10 a hand, for $1,050 of action, expect to lose $50 + $20. If you're dumb enough to play a blackjack game with a $.50 commission per hand, you're also dumb enough to stay on a 12 vs a 2, double 8s, not hit soft 18s vs a 10, stay on 15 vs a 7... enough to add another 2 percent to the HA, so $90 over 100 hands. If you play for 4 hours, you're playing about 300 hands, and you could expect to lose $270, which is alot.
Even at perfect play at $10 / hand, you're still playing at a 7% house advantage. With 7% HA ($10/hand), your expected return over 100 hands is -$61.95. 95% of the time (2 standard deviations) you would expect a return between -$276 and $152. If you manage to last 300 hands (4 hours), the expected loss if $186 with a 95% expectancy of between -$557 and $186 and a chance of gain of only 15.9%. So no wonder everyone is losing. Only 1 of six players will come out as winners in that scenario.
At some gaming establishments in the United States, due to the lack of gaming control board inspections, one can assume that all roulette wheels located in illegal gambling halls may be rigged. In fact, one needs to be suspicious of wheels located in almost every state, with the exception of Nevada and New Jersey, no matter if the wheels are in legal or illegal halls.
The reason for it is there have been various ways to gaff roulette wheels since the genesis of the game itself and some of them are still in use today.
Now, let us dedicate some time to discussing the most common ways of rigging a wheel, which are, unfortunately, part of casino practice, especially at dishonest gambling establishments.
Ball Tripping
One method of rigging a roulette wheel, which establishments probably prefer the most, is to control where on the wheelhead the ball will likely come to rest. In order to do this, dishonest casinos use a procedure, known as ball tripping. With it the roulette ball is prematurely dislodged from the track, so that it settles into a particular desired section of the wheelhead. This can be done in a number of ways and has been a regular practice among casinos and roulette players.
At present, the majority of reputable casinos have placed plastic security shields around their roulette wheels, a measure which put to a halt any ball tripping methods employed by gamblers. However, at illegal casinos and establishments outside of Nevada and New Jersey, ball tripping techniques are still put to action on rigged wheels.
Rigging the wheel mechanically
A roulette wheel can be rigged in several ways, but the most commonly employed method includes the control of a trip pin placed in the ball track.
In case a dealer is willing to displace the ball from the track, he/she can do so by using a level under the edge of the roulette table. The dealer can attach this lever to a cable, which in turn is connected to a spring-loaded pin. This way the pin can be projected scarcely into the track. Whenever the ball spins around the track, it can be tripped with the pin and forced to fall onto the wheelhead.
In many cases the dealer will attempt to cause the ball to settle into the single zero or the double zero pocket. He/she will, of course, make an exception, if players have placed huge bets on those numbers, or if somebody has bet on the center column.
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In case the dealer has a well-developed visual tracking ability, he/she will usually attempt to direct the ball to a wheelhead section where betting activity has been low. Some dealers have shown quite remarkable skill doing this, a skill that may even cause players to believe that those dealers can actually aim the ball after the latter is released. If it weren't for the trip pin, there will be no way for a dealer to direct the ball where he/she desires.
Another curious fact to note is that some wheels feature a brake, which can slow the rotation of the wheelhead. By using this ”additional element”, a skillful dealer is, in fact, able to synchronize the speed of the wheelhead to that of the ball, so that whenever the latter comes into contact with the trip pin, the wheelhead itself is positioned appropriately.
It may seem quite obvious, if a trip pin is well-made, it could be really difficult to spot. As the trip pin is located on the side of the wheel, which is closest to the betting layout, it cannot be immediately observed by players at the table. The hole in the ball track wall is usually minuscule, while the pin appears to be thinner than a six-inch sewing needle. In addition, the ball track is partially recessed under the rim, so it would be extremely difficult to have a clear sight of its ”modification”.
Some casinos have come up with a more elaborate scheme.
They will rig their wheels by using small blocking pins, with each one of them being placed at the front wall of every pocket. In addition, under the roulette table at the dealer's side of the wheel, there will be two hidden levers. One of them will control the pins in the red pockets, while the other, the pins in the black pockets, respectively. Whenever a dealer moves one of the levers, this will extend the pins and prevent the ball from settling into that particular set (red or black) of pockets. As the pins jut out only during wheelhead rotation, players will probably have a difficult time detecting them.
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Because this is a more complex scheme than a single trip pin, it is not immune to failure at all (jamming, for example). And because such a way of wheel rigging blocks individual numbers having a certain color, dealers usually employ it against players with a habit to bet on color.
There is another wheel gaffing scheme, known as the ”set wheel”. Casinos can set such wheels to favor a particular group of pockets by widening or narrowing the space between the pocket separators. As a result, one set of pockets will be made wider and another one – narrower. These wheels are rigged, so that alternate pocket separators are attached to the center hub. Whenever that hub is turned either way, the dealer is able to control the width of alternate pockets. The overall effect is very much the same as that caused by blocking pins.